« Revenir vers Discussions

Please put a ban on frames

Vue combinée Vue Plate Arborescence
Threads [ Previous | Suivant ]
toggle
Please put a ban on frames
Réponse
13/04/07 11:30
There are an increasing group of puzzle authors out there that build in an outside frame to their puzzle picture. I'd personally like to see this banned.

1) They add nothing to the picture itself.

2) They are simply a cynical ploy to up the points value of a puzzle (just check out most of the 1,000,000+ B&W puzzles that have a mid-time under 30 minutes).

3) Puzzle solving becomes boring (you basically start by doing the frame edge and work your way in, so it becomes repetitive).

4) This is effectively de-valuing the true "difficult puzzles" by decent respected authors.

Please ban frames in griddlers...if you agree please add your comment below, if you disagree, please explain below why frames should be allowed.

Thanks

Re: Please put a ban on frames
Réponse
13/04/07 12:10 en réponse à f1comp.
I agree with you, although I can only speak about Triddlers. Not only those outline frames are terrible but also the, for the picture completely unnecessary, lines or dots that some authors use to get more points or fill up the space (instead of making the puzzle smaller which would be much nicer for the solvers!)
But I want to make an exception for those puzzles in which the outline is an essential part of the picture as is f.i. the case in the beautiful coat of arms series of Giceasar (cities of Slowakija) or logos with an outline border.
Fineke

Re: Please put a ban on frames
Réponse
13/04/07 12:59 en réponse à f1comp.
I don't mind the frames at all myself. Most high points puzzles have parts that are obviously added to get more points. And not all of them are easy to solve. A frame might help to start, but doesn't mean finishing it will be easy. And if it does, I like to solve them, they keep me in the top-list. emoticon

Sometimes the frame does improve the image, personally I think 44335 (one of those very easy high points ones) wouldn't look as good if it didn't have the border. And there are also easy-to-solve high points puzzles that don't have a frame (like 44143), so I don't think it matters much. As long as the final image is nice, I like them!

Jelga

Re: Please put a ban on frames
Réponse
13/04/07 14:44 en réponse à f1comp.
many times a puzzle is given a frame so it will be solvable (mostly in b&w) it is true that many times it is used to pump up scores but banning them will result in much less b&w puzzles (which i personally love)
so please, don't ban the frame just make sure the result looks good...

Nadav

Re: Please put a ban on frames
Réponse
13/04/07 17:33 en réponse à f1comp.
I checked the popularity of puzzles-with-frames submitted in the last two weeks and got the following result:

44597 = 75.00%
44596 = 87.50%
44422 = 83.04%
44393 = 85.71%
44390 = 77.50%
44389 = 86.59%
44388 = 82.35%
44337 = 77.21%
44336 = 82.65%
44335 = 72.69%
44221 = 73.53%
44214 = 74.15%
44146 = 80.26%

The average popularity of these puzzles is ~80%. It contradicts the new rule suggested: ban puzzles with frames.

I can understand having this rule for MultiGriddlers. If a multi has an empty part and the author adds a frame to skirt this problem - the multi will not be accepted. However, if the part has a frame and a portion of the whole image - it will.

Hagit

Re: Please put a ban on frames
Réponse
14/04/07 01:13 en réponse à f1comp.
I wouldn't usually dip my toe into this kind of issue but "banning" what one doesn't like is, I believe, contrary to the spirit of this site.

There are 40,000+ (!) puzzles here and no one has even come close to solving them all. If you don't like something move on to something that you do. I take strong objection to someone else deciding for me what is and isn't aesthetically pleasing, entertaining or challenging.

Personally, I don't like doing ducks, chicks or other avis. I have enough respect for this community, however, to recognize that there are those that do and I don't want to spoil their fun. One may take objection to the contrivance of a puzzle to boost its point total but that is all part of the panoply of the puzzles on this site.

There is no lost purity -- no ideal compromised -- by accomodating different tastes. Banning is a powerful sledge wich much be wielded very sparingly. Otherwise, one could wake up one day to find what one likes banned (but there was no one left to speak up for me when I was taken away....).

Sean

ps: We moved last week. Long-suffering wife hid the soap box, but I found it.

Re: Please put a ban on frames
Réponse
24/04/07 17:39 en réponse à f1comp.
I enjoy puzzles with frames - they give me somewhere to start. As for them being too easy, I agree some seem to be very easy for the points, but some..... well.......... have you tried "Dwarves House", a b&w framed puzzle.

Personally I hate puzzles with large blocks of one colour, because I inevitably muck up on my counting and have awful problems, but that's just my view, and I tend to avoid such puzzles.

What I'm really saying is that there are many types of puzzles and you can avoid those that will annoy/frustrate you.

Wouldn't life be boring if we all liked the same thing (apart from Griddling in general!)

Re: Please put a ban on frames
Réponse
02/09/07 04:34 en réponse à f1comp.
As an author i can say, sometimes you spend all the time making a puzzle and then you find out it is not solvable. You then put a border on it and find out it is. So, sometimes puzzles need a border in order to make them solvable.

Re: Please put a ban on frames
Réponse
11/10/07 18:07 en réponse à f1comp.
Newcomer here, but I'd hate to see frames banned. Some puzzles do need them to be solvable, and in some they really do add to the quality of the finished image and in some, they actually make it harder (the fantasy alphabet series of Multi's comes to mind--there are frames on all of them, but they aren't predictable.)

There are always going to be a few people who resort to point-inflation ploys (racking up high "puzzles solved" counts by zipping through Minimalists at 4 or 5 per minute for an hour at a time, turning a 25X25 into a 30X30 with an unnecessary frame, making a three-color puzzle into a four-color by adding an unnecessary outline.) I think that trying to ban all of the ways to commit point-inflation is an exercise in futility.

Re: Please put a ban on frames
Réponse
11/10/07 19:12 en réponse à f1comp.
[quote="Madrugada"]
There are always going to be a few people who resort to point-inflation ploys (racking up high "puzzles solved" counts by zipping through Minimalists at 4 or 5 per minute for an hour at a time, turning a 25X25 into a 30X30 with an unnecessary frame, making a three-color puzzle into a four-color by adding an unnecessary outline.) I think that trying to ban all of the ways to commit point-inflation is an exercise in futility.

What's wrong with solving all the minimalisms? I'm currently ranked #232 in puzzles solved, and I've solved all single puzzles with a mid time under 8 minutes, and most multigriddlers parts under 5 minutes.

Re: Please put a ban on frames
Réponse
11/10/07 19:16 en réponse à f1comp.
[quote="ferloft101"]As an author i can say, sometimes you spend all the time making a puzzle and then you find out it is not solvable. You then put a border on it and find out it is. So, sometimes puzzles need a border in order to make them solvable.

Same here.

One of my favorites that I created was not solvable until I added an implied frame. It is not a continuous frame, but it is still a frame. It is pretty easy to see which puzzles have a solid frame when you open them up. If you see that, and truly hate frames, then just close your window and move on to the next puzzle.

Re: Please put a ban on frames
Réponse
11/10/07 21:27 en réponse à f1comp.
The problem with these flippin' border thingies is mainly that it's all pretty boring to do .. because once you know there is a border .. and because in general they are all created with a similar format to each other .. you can simply fill in loads of the grid without even having to pay much attention to the clues .. :?

The only advantage I can see is that adding borders gives the authors an easy 'leg up' the leader board as borders increase the points .. often dramatically .. making the Griddler worth millions of points rather than it's true thousands of points ..

Personally I simply do the borders as fast as possible to get rid of that part of the Griddler.. then I can settle down and start tackling the 'real' part of the Griddler ..

I'm sure the 'borders' are mainly unnecessary, they definitely add nothing to the enjoyment of completing the Griddler and because everyone gets the 'extra' points ... in the end adding the border is simply a valueless exercise .. emoticon

Re: Please put a ban on frames
Réponse
12/10/07 10:13 en réponse à f1comp.
I cannot agree with you.
In some cases adding a border is a way to give more points to the puzzle, but sometimes it is the only way to make the puzzle solvable. Try to create 50x50 2 colour puzzle without border. For some pictures it is impossible

T.

Re: Please put a ban on frames
Réponse
12/10/07 11:21 en réponse à f1comp.
If it is now impossible to make some pictures without borders the Griddler generator thingy must have changed .. if you work back through the early years of Griddlers we never used to have borders .. borders are only a recent phenomenon .. :roll:

Re: Please put a ban on frames
Réponse
12/10/07 16:32 en réponse à f1comp.
It is not impossible, but sometimes it helps making the puzzle solvable, without making serious changes to the picture itself, that might downgrade its quality.

I don't think that using a border really hurts the joy of solving a puzzle. On the contrary, I like those puzzles better, because then I don't need to do lots of big block counting in the middle of the puzzle. That doesn't mean the border puzzles themselves are easy, not at all. Some of them can be counted among the most difficult on this site, and the most enjoyable, in my opinion.

Re: Please put a ban on frames
Réponse
12/10/07 17:12 en réponse à f1comp.
[quote="patootie"]If it is now impossible to make some pictures without borders the Griddler generator thingy must have changed .. if you work back through the early years of Griddlers we never used to have borders .. borders are only a recent phenomenon .. :roll:
Borders have been in puzzles immemorially. Puzzle 2459 created in 2002 has a border. Puzzle 51544 created yesterday has not. Don't blame the system for them.

Hagit

Re: Please put a ban on frames
Réponse
12/10/07 22:02 en réponse à f1comp.
emoticon That's good to hear Hagit emoticon

Re: Please put a ban on frames
Réponse
13/10/07 03:13 en réponse à f1comp.
One of the puzzles I'm stuck on, which I keep going back to and adding a few squares to, has a border. It doesn't make it any easier to solve!

Some borders are pretty emoticon They're nice when they're pretty, even if they aren't hard to fill in quickly emoticon

Re: Please put a ban on frames
Réponse
14/10/07 16:03 en réponse à f1comp.
Griddlers is not a relgion. Only an addiction.
So banning frames (or whatever else) is out of order.
An author using a frame has to live with the anger of f1comp. At the same time he can be sure of the admiration and thanks of many other members of the griddlersfamily.
leo02

Re: Please put a ban on frames
Réponse
25/10/07 22:39 en réponse à f1comp.
Solve the puzzle you like, and stay away from the one you don't like and everybody is happy.

Re: Please put a ban on frames
Réponse
19/12/07 03:14 en réponse à f1comp.
I'd rather just see those puzzles get marked as fluff points or something, although this would take a human reviewing a puzzle to mark it as fluff. The fluff points wouldn't count towards leaderboards or anywhere points actually might matter.

The frames ones I've seen don't even use a fully framed picture, only a partial frame (algorithm doesn't get fooled as much and less points to fully frame the picture?)

It makes scoring by points and leaderboards worthless when people can drastically manipulate (artificially inflate) the value of their puzzles regardless of actual dificulty. The algorithm isn't perfect, yes, but when a puzzle as difficult as a typical 150k-250k puzzle is worth 140000k-160000k because of exploiting the solving algorithm's weak points, that skews things. Scoring/Leaderboards comes down to hunting down the fluff puzzles and solving them, not necessarily solving many or difficult puzzles.

Re: Please put a ban on frames
Réponse
19/12/07 09:04 en réponse à f1comp.
some puzzles without a frame get high points to and are way more easy then the score says.
It should not matter whether there is a border or not, and as some already said, sometimes it is impossible for an author to create a solvable griddler without it!

RE: Re: Please put a ban on frames
Réponse
03/05/10 11:42 en réponse à wax.
3 years later ... !

After taking an accidental Sabbatical from Griddlers I came back to find the 'frames' are still here .. sigh .. there is something about seeing the clues showing there will be dozens of random lines all around the edge that have no shape or pattern .. that just completely turn me off ... :?

I've read through the debate about whether they are good or bad .. and it seems to me a few folks really like them .. but more think they are either a waste of space (sorry authors) .. or just put in to gain more points or to make the Griddler work .. :x

I've tried a few again ... but I just cannot make myself like them .. my heart sinks right down to my boots when I open a 'randomly framed' Griddler up .. it's mostly the same 'clutch of authors' who make these 'no pattern' framed Griddlers .. yet when I finally find a Griddler they haven't added these wretched 'making up the numbers' frames to they are so skillfully made and a joy to complete .. emoticon

I know which I prefer .. it's skill above points anyday ... emoticon

Modérateurs du Forum : griddlers_team, elad, Ra100, chefmomster2, domi77, dreamtheater, elimaor, ElinaMaria, Jeltje, sslug, cosmictrombonis, raist.
Please read the Board-wide Policies before you start using this forum.